In this episode, host Brandon Jenkins speaks with Academy Award-winning costume designer Ruth E. Carter. They discuss her role in designing the costumes for Netflix's Dolemite Is My Name, the impact of black fashion in the 70's, and more. This Episode's Blaxploitation Watch List: Dolemite Is My Name (2019) Superfly (1972) The Mack (1973) Dolemite (1975)
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Brandon: Welcome back to There's Something About Dolemite. I'm Brandon Jenkins. And this week, we're talking about the looks that made the Blaxploitation era one to be remembered. We've all seen grainy photos from the '70s, in a family photo album or circulating on Tumblr or Instagram. It's the way people were dressed that really catches my eye when I look back at old pictures of family members or get my hands on an old magazine. It feels like a time of expression and flamboyance.
Like coming out of the '60s, everything got bigger and more lively, especially for black folks: flared pants, wide lapels, heeled shoes, bold colors and, of course, big hair. The looks were loud but clean. And in a lot of ways, the 70s felt like the beginning of something new and an America that began to obsess over excess and expression. And for black America, this also meant departing from white folks ideas of respectability and order. It made making a statement with your clothing and taking agency over how you wanted to be seen.
[Clip played]
Dolemite: I don't want to get in my car with this shit on. I'm glad you all brought my clothes to me. You see what the guards give me to get out of jail in. You guard. I want you to take these cheap motherfuckers and wipe your ass with them.
Guard: Oh, no, Dolemite, we'll keep 'em here. You'll be back.
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Brandon: And with the introduction of blaxploitation, the films at the time also embodied these elements, at times, pushing them to the max. Think about the iconic pimp look, top hats with the shades, three-piece suits, jeweled out canes and the platform shoes. Movies like Shaft, Cleopatra Jones, The Mack, and Willie Dynamite, have a way of isolating the times' fashion to live alongside the films bigger than life characters. It was like, "If the world is finally going to look at us, then we are fixin' to show out."
The ideas exemplified as we catch Eddie Murphy's portrayal of Rudy Ray Moore, transforming into Dolemite on Netflix's Dolemite Is My Name. We see him standing in front of the mirror trying to bring the super pimp to life. The looks play as much of a role as the characters do, enter Ruth E. Carter, the Academy Award winning costume designer, whose work includes some of our culture's most iconic films: Do the Right Thing, Malcolm X, Amistad, Love & Basketball, Sparkle, Selma, and Black Panther, to name a few, and let's not forget B.A.P.S. And in her latest film, Dolemite Is My Name, Ruth E. Carter takes us back to the '70s, with the help of outrageously colored suits, marshmallow shoes, and more. Here's a bit of what Eddie Murphy and Mike Epps had to say about working with her on the project.
[Clip played]
Eddie: Yeah, Ruth, she be having it looking authentic. She's the best in the whole business, you know, and she's got the Academy Award to prove it.
Mike: I've watched some of Ruth's work for years, since she done Spike Lee. And, man, she has a real talent, a real art, to be able to have an eye and to be able to tap into a period piece like that and really dress people the same way.
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Brandon: With a career that spans over 30 years, Ruth's work as a costume designer depicts a spectrum of black life, be it fact or fiction, historical or fantasy, fashioning her into something more than a costumer designer. She's more like a cultural archeologist meets a style architect. With an eye for where we've been and where we can go, it makes perfect sense that she was tapped to helm the costumes for Rudy Ray Moore's biopic, and we're lucky enough to have her with us today. Ruth Carter, thanks so much for joining me.
Ruth: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Brandon: Okay. So I want to start off by talking '70s fashion. There was '70s fashion, and then there was black and urban '70s fashion. How do you distinguish the two?
Ruth: Well, there's a lot of very clear distinctions. There was the hippie movement, where you had, you know, a lot of denim. You had a lot of embroidery on denim. You had, you know, this free spirit that kind of, you know, was born in the '60s and continued through the '70s: flower child, you know, Twiggy. You had, you know, that look that mainly many students, which you see in Dolemite. And people in the white community embraced more of the, you know, Annie Kalsø earth shoes and, you know, a lot of that.
So there was also the Black Power movement, which was also born in the '60s, continuing through the '70s, where it was a little bit more paramilitary and, you know, the afro was a symbol of reacquainting yourself with your roots and, you know, saying it loud, you're black and you're proud, and empowerment, and, you know, bringing community, the black community together and uplifting their voices and their sense of self and pride of self. And then you had the, I would say it was more or less the urban dresser who went to see these films like The Mack or Superfly, and, you know, these were symbols of people who were entrepreneurial. I mean, you got to admit, a pimp is an entrepreneur or a small business owner. And, you know, you dressed to impress.
And, you know, that culture, that pimp culture really was a defining of an image and it created an image, a fantasy image. So, you know, you'd have a pimp and his name might be, you know, "Cotton Candy," and he would dress in pink and white and have a lace pocket square and white shoes, you know, and so he defined his image by his name, and, you know, that had a lot of other connotations as well. But that's what the emergence of that pimp style was. It was you could be fashionable and unique.
And a lot of the clothing was what they called "tailored," then, and you could go into a store, you know, in Harlem or in any city and get your custom made garments, and get the details done the way you wanted them, whether you wanted to have contrasting pockets or you wanted to use a color that defines your name, powder blue, or whatever it was it was available for you. In the '70s, it became a mainstream look.
Brandon: So I'm looking at this era of blaxploitation, the entire movement, specifically film, what do you call it? Is "blaxploitation" the right term to call that style of fashion and dress? Or have you developed another term over time?
Ruth: Well, you know, I haven't developed anything over time, because I don't only do quote/unquote "blaxploitation" films. I have done all kinds of eras and genres, but I do think that blaxploitation is a blanket term for, you know, what happened during the '70s in film, especially black film, and telling African American stories, urban stories. You know, there's all these terms that float around to describe that time. So I do think though that—growing up in the '70s, I mean, I was a teenager in the '70s, and so I went to the movies and I remember all of those films: The Mack and Shaft, Superfly. I remember all of them, and I remember, you know, along with my five brothers, you know, being very excited about them.
And, you know, now, you know, that we're past that time and what it meant to, I guess, the urban community, the black community, what it meant to the black community was kind of like identity defining. It was a time of how to dress to impress, you know. We'd come out of the '60s and civil rights, and there were so many pockets of, in the '70s. There were so many different areas where things were defined. Looks were defined. There was the hippie movement. There was the Black Power movement and then there was this soul movement. And so, you know, I'm having trouble with defining that time as a Blaxploitation era because that means that, you know, somebody took advantage of, you know, my community in a way that exploited them.
And I remember that time just in terms of the visuals and the impact and the excitement around going to see these films and remembering these films, and I wouldn't define it as being exploitive. But I know that that's what happened, you know. Behind the scenes, you know, all of the revenue that came from our excitement and came from our attendance in the movie theaters was not reciprocated. It did not come back into the community. It, you know, it laced somebody's pockets out there that really wasn't, you know, in any way thinking about, you know, how to uplift the race or be positive for the community that supported them.
Brandon: You know, you brought up just like the flamboyance and style and what it meant to, you know, look like a pimp. I'd love to hear you break down what it means bringing that style to life in your role.
Ruth: As a costume designer, I work with actors and they play roles that they usually work really hard to figure out what the details of the part are. And so, you know, it isn't anything that is, you know, a blanket decision on my part alone or their part alone. It's a collaborative process. And when I'm in consultation with an actor and they want to play this stylish dresser that has this quote/unquote "pimp" style, you know, it usually starts with a name, you know, like I described. And it usually depends on what, you know, tones and colors that they want to use to describe that name.
There is some exploration in fabrics. I go find deadstock and, you know, get that double-knit polyester to make those high-waisted pants or those bell bottom pants. You know, a lot of times, getting the coordination between the shoes and the suits and the shirt and the hat means that a lot of these things are custom made. And, you know, that's what happened in the '70s. I mean, there were some catalogs that were available where you could order things through catalogs like Esquire and Eleganza.
But today, as a costume designer, going back and recreating the '70s, it's definitely a completely made to order. Occasionally, you can find a homburg or a fedora that works with the palette that you're creating for that particular outfit. But most of the time, you have to, if you want it just perfect, you have to make the shoes. You have to make the shirt so that the ruffles are the right size or that the collar has the right points, and that everything works well together. It really is something that you have to orchestrate.
Brandon: So you're not just going to the mall and grabbing, I guess, wide leg pants or a blazer with wide lapels on it.
Ruth: No, I don't know when the last time you were at the mall, but you're not going to find that. It's going to be something that really—I mean, because, you know, a store's, a retail, is trying to sell current fashion. They're not really trying to sell retro fashion. And there are some anachronisms in fashion. When I did Ike Turner and I dressed Laurence Fishburne as Ike Turner in What's Love Got to Do with It, I actually, you know, started finding in a store a ruffled shirt and I was able to buy them and use them. And so, every once in a while, there will be something that returns. And if you're lucky, it's right during the time that you're prepping so that you can buy them. But for the most part, in order to get the perfect fit, you've got to make it.
Brandon: So how was the search of finding pieces from the '70s for Dolemite Is My Name, specifically?
Ruth: Well, Dolemite Is My Name was a combination of both made to order and rental pieces. I really wanted to put together looks that I remembered growing up in the '70s that we weren't walking around pointing at each other laughing. I wanted to make a movie about the '70s that I remembered, and it was pretty hot. It was pretty sexy. It was really wonderful and very unique, and people had a very particular style about themselves.
And so when you walked into the—when you watched Dolemite and you see the patrons in the clubs and the nightclubs and on the streets, it's everything I remember about the '70s. It's everything that, to me, was cool and current during the '70s. And then, you have Dolemite, and Dolemite was larger than life. He was larger than the '70s, so I had to start from a solid base of rentals and authentic pieces, all the background, and even some of our cast wore, and then create this character of Dolemite that was, you know, larger than even that. And by that, I used very unusual fabrics.
I really studied Dolemite's looks and recreated them exactly the way he had them because he worked hard to create this character. And so, once I saw what that character was, and we were going to be recreating some of those scenes, it had to be exactly the same. And there were things, there were pieces that he had that I remembered too that I really loved, you know, patchwork denim blazer with jeans that were flared and they were a matching patchwork denim, and then the shoes were also patchwork denim, and it all looked like it was all customized all together.
And so it was really important to go down that road that I remembered as well, and create this character from, you know, tailoring, and we made all of his shirts. We made the shoes. Some of the hats we bought. Some of the hats we made. Dolemite had an affinity for wearing the hats that matched his clothes. And even some of his casual suits had a matching hat and he had a mesh front in front of some of his jackets, where, you know, it was very unusual to have the front part of your coat in a see through mesh, you know. So I knew that he was custom making all of this stuff, and so once I got it, I could actually create more.
Brandon: What was it like styling Eddie Murphy? Is there a particular outfit that was the most exciting or challenging to bring to life?
Ruth: Well, because I knew that Eddie Murphy had really studied Dolemite for years and years and, you know, he was going to come to the table well informed. I worked really hard to recreate Dolemite's costumes for him in a way that would make him smile, like, that's definitely—the outfit he wore when he's fighting the detectives and they, you know, kind of hop into the back of the trunk. So it was fun to kind of meet his expectations in a way. But these garments were really made out of the '70s fabrics, you know. Because it's really hard to get that look without studying the fabrics that they're made out of and recreating them in some of the same fabrics.
So it was a little bit hot, you know. We were shooting in Los Angeles in the middle of the summer, and he's in double knit polyester. But, you know, I tried to give him a lot of the Qiana knit pattern shirts and just let him be casual when he was Rudy Ray Moore—and just a shirt. And so, it was really fun to have Eddie in the fittings. Because we're kind of the same age and he remembered certain things, like marshmallow shoes, you know. When I say that to some people, they don't know what that is. When I said it to Eddie, he knew exactly what a marshmallow was.
Brandon: I think I know what you mean, but can you put me on?
Ruth: Oh, yeah. Well, marshmallow shoes were super popular, very trendy. Both men and women had them. They were kind of unisex. They had a very thick platform and spongy white heel and it was likened to a sneaker style before sneaker style really happened. So you could wear marshmallows, and they may have a—like powder blue leather upper part and a white platform, both heel and front in this spongy white material. And then you'd wear it with your jeans. And it kind of felt like, you know, some tennis shoes that, you know, are around now. It was like that was the style of the casual dresser.
Brandon: I love that description. Now, we used the term "blaxploitation" earlier. But we'll just call it "That time."
Ruth: That time, yes.
Brandon: That time. What are your thoughts on how "that time" really moved the needle for black culture and style going forward? You know, you kind of hinted at it earlier saying it was sort of the creation.
Ruth: Yeah.
Brandon: But I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.
Ruth: Well, I just think that that subculture of the pimp style, if you would, and the movies that emulated that urban flare, that guy who was a hustler who had street knowledge, who dressed really cool, who cocked his hat to the side and had a toothpick in his mouth and wore, you know, colors that were much more vibrant, you know, green leather jackets with matching pants and shoes. I think because it was such an embraced choice for our, you know, heroes, if you would, our players, our actors, our films. It caught on. It became, you know, a trend. It was after—say it loud, "I'm black and I'm proud." It was, you know, kind of more like, you know, "Say it loud. I've arrived and I'm just strutting my stuff."
Brandon: You know, with this podcast, we've spent a lot of time talking about legacy, kind of looking backwards and seeing the traces of where we're at today. What are some ways your own work has been influenced by that time?
Ruth: I think that my work is influenced by that time because I was always that little girl, you know, in the room, and I could see the people. I could see the person behind the clothing, and I knew the dynamic of that world because it was my world. You know, it influences me today, because as you go through, I guess, as I went through life, I could say, you know, the misunderstanding or the stereotypes that were being lauded and misinterpreted, and so it influences my life in that, you know, I'm not laughing at you. I'm directing a look that helps to define who you are and it's not funny, but it can be if that's how you want to play it. I look at it more like a lifestyle, and that lifestyle goes back into different genres and different eras. So I look at it more like a lifestyle than I do a look.
Brandon: Well, as you mentioned, when it comes to fashion, it's all about choices. So for our final questions we've been asking all of our guests this question. When it comes to blaxploitation films, what's your must watch?
Ruth: Oh, The Mack, Max Julien. It has everything. It has social commentary. You'll learn about the '70s. It has the fashions. Max, you know, full length, white fur coat and hat. It's amazing. It gives you a snapshot across the board of 1973, so I would say The Mack.
Brandon: If you had to rank it on fashion alone, is that the best film?
Ruth: Yes, by far.
Brandon: Okay. Perfect. Well, Ruth, we appreciate your time.
Ruth: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
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Brandon: Make sure to share thoughts about the show by tweeting our friends at Strong Back Lead. This show is a collaboration between Netflix's Strong Back Lead and Pineapple Street Studios. Special thanks to executive producers Jasmyn Lawson, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and Max Linsky. Shout out to my producers, Agerenesh Ashagre and Jess Jupiter. Our original music is by Daoud Anthony. Tell your friends about the show and make sure to rate and subscribe to There's Something About Dolemite on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcast. And that's it. That's our show. We'll see you all next week.
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